Posted by: DIS | April 4, 2015

God is everlasting though time, Part 2

God is everlasting though time, Part 2

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Responses

  1. After examining further it seems Calvinism also contradicts its own theory of sovereign decree. Eternal foreknowledge is inconsistent with the doctrine of sovereign decree because if all events were in fact foreknown by God then He never had an opportunity to predetermine anything Once again; if everything is eternally settled through foreknowledge before Gods’ will could predetermine it, then how could anything be predetermined by God, thus leaving Him with no opportunity of freewill. So there is a problematic stumbling block within Calvinism between Gods’ own foreknowledge and His freewill. However, knowing this first: If God has a freewill then there must be alternative possibilities that He chooses between. And possibilities cannot be certainties! The first council within the Godhead is found in Gen.1:26,27. Foreknowledge or predeterminism would render that council incoherent. The open view holds that God knows more in that He knows every possibility and has taken measures to make His plan come about no matter what possibly occurs.

    Even Jesus himself had a freewill. He told Peter He could pray the Father to send Him 12 legions of angels, but He choose not to. So not only is the idea of eternal foreknowledge “omniscience” a problem with man freewill choice, it also becomes problematic with Gods’ freewill choice. The doctrine of eternal foreknowledge “omniscience” is illogical and incoherent with scripture. However, God is in fact omniscient in that He knows all that can be known, Matthew 10:29,30.

    The fulfillment of the gathering into the kingdom of God is an absolute prophecy which God decreed will happen no matter what the current circumstances might be. God does not change his mind about that.

    bill

  2. Hi Bill,

    I have enjoyed these latest studies on Time and Open Theism and need a lot more time on them.

    Time is a pre-requisite for its own creation and a logical necessity of sequence ….. A beginning out of darkness into light was the moving of the Spirit of God. The Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. He moves to accomplish and end, to bring Light/Good out of darkness. He moves “with His Creation” within an uncertain amount of time with patience and long suffering until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in on the Last Day.

    I came across below this little insert on time and eternity.

    Many insist on projecting the concepts of time into eternity. We constantly think of heaven as a continuation on a larger and perfect scale of life on earth. Locked into our world of space and time, we find it very difficult to imagine life proceeding on any other terms. But we must remember that time is time and eternity is eternity and never the twain shall meet. ((I feel you are correct stating time is not a thing to be created but a very linear necessity for sequence.)) We experience something of the same difficulty in dealing with the mathematical concept of infinity. Many people imagine infinity to be a very large number, but it is not. The difference is that if you subtract 1 from a very large number, you have one less, but if you subtract 1 from infinity you still have infinity.

    Time stands in the same relation to Eternity, in one sense, as a large number does to infinity. There is one sense in which infinity includes a very large number, yet it is quite fundamentally different and independent of it. And by analogy, Eternity includes Time and yet is fundamentally something other. The reduction of Time until it gets smaller and smaller is still not Eternity. Nor do we reach Eternity by an extension of Time to great length. There is no direct pathway between Time and Eternity. They are different categories of experience.

    The thing we must remember in dealing with this matter of life beyond death is that when time ends, eternity begins. They are not the same, and we must not make them the same. Author, Ray Stedman

    Peace, Linda

  3. Isaiah 57:15 where God is said to inhabit eternity. This does not demand that God exist in all times as once (past present future) But rather when harmonized with the full weight of scripture it is easily fulfilled with a God that existed for all time in the past and will continue to exist for all time into the future.

  4. Eternity in common parlance is either an infinite or an indeterminately long period of time. However, in classical philosophy, eternity is held to be that which exists outside of time with sempiternity being the concept that corresponds to the colloquial definition. Eternity, or everlasting, is an important concept in many religions, where the immortality of God or the gods is said to endure eternally. Some, such as Aristotle, would say the same about the natural cosmos in regard to both past and future eternal duration, and like the eternal Platonic Forms, immutability was considered essential.[1]

    The metaphysics of eternity studies that which necessarily exists outside or independently of space and time

    Wikipedia

    Here we see these common concepts used in Christianity were of ancient Greek philosophers. And not that of scripture. This is where the false doctrine in the church called “immutability” is derived form. It didn’t come form the bible it came from Plato. In others words according to Plato; God must not be able to change because He is already perfect, so if He changed He would no longer be perfect, thus He must exist outside of time in a timeless vacuum of immutability not capable of any new thoughts or feelings. And Christians have believed these myths for over 1500 years…..Remember Ambrose instructed Augustine that the bible could only be understood by reading it in the light of Plato. And Augustine has had more influence on Christian Theology than any man that has ever lived. He was a complete heretic, deaf, dumb, and blind who according to his own confessions lived a life of sin perpetually…This is why they hated Pelagius..Also remember the next two most famous theologians were Luther & Calvin and they interpreted the bible in the light of Augustine. Bingo, the dots are connected. Which means they actually reformed nothing.

    What did the apostle Paul say to all of the earthly wise philosophers and men of renown at the Acropolis when he was invited to speak to them?…. “I perceive you to be too superstitious”… And what was their response after hearing Paul?…. ” some mocked: and others said, perhaps we will hear thee again of this matter”… However, the word never comes back void because </strong>” as Paul departed from among them. Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them”.

  5. I have been studying the nature of God more intensely for the past 6 months, and have found many of the traditional beliefs I had held to were flawed. In viewing almost all of the teachings available on this particular doctrine “God’s foreknowledge” I think John has the best videos on this subject. This is a 14 part video starting in Part 2. I do not now anything about their ministry, nor am I endorsing it at this present time. But I do know that this along with Jesse’s video are the two most accurate on the web concerning the foreknowledge of God. I have a couple of disagreements with parts 11 & 13 as to when Satan fell, and that I do not believe God tried to reason with him (proof text Gen. 3-14). John also believes time was created whereas I think not.. Anyway overall this teaching is excellent………….Bill

    Gordon Olson has some good teachings on Gods’ foreknowledge also.

    Jesse’s study is very good also

  6. Thanks Bill, that verse just came to mind as I was reading your study and I wasn’t sure how to explain it…and what you say makes it more understandable..as you say “time within this creation realm as we know it will end..I do not perceive it to be saying there won’t be any more time afterwards in the new heavens and earth.” It is interesting that in Genesis in the beginning before God created the sun and moon and stars… God said let there be light and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from darkness. And God called the light “Day” and the darkness he called Night. “And the evening and the morning were the FIRST DAY”. And then once again we see that light in Rev 21:22-25 and Rev 22:5 it talks about the light in the city and how there is no need of the sun and moon or candle “for the “Glory of God did lighten it and the lamb is the light thereof”…”for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign forever and ever.” It seems the light God named Day in Genesis 1:5 is speaking of a different kind of Day than in Genesis 1:14-19 where it speaks of a day and night after he created the sun and the moon and stars…”and the evening and the morning were the FOURTH DAY”. Just wondering if that could explain the difference of the time within this creation realm that ends and the time that is everlasting in the new heavens and earth? Blessings to you

    • greetings again Judy

      The light and dark were called Day and Night. What I always found interesting is that the words Day & Night are both capitalized as proper nouns. And as you say; the sun, moon, and stars were not created until the 4th day. I have for a long time laboured to get a full understanding of Gen. 1-4, 5 but have yet to do so. You bring up a good thought provoking comparison in Rev 21.

      Also in the new earth there will be movement and action so I would think that would require sequence, albeit as you say it will be different than this present earth and the light dispensed thereon. So, this to me somewhat means that we can really only comprehend time in this present 3D universal realm in which we live. Anyway you have presented good thoughts and reasoning. I have not looked at those verses and connected them before. Thanks so much..There are so many things about the resurrection that are unknown as the apostle John said.

      I often wonder are the women going to be raised as women, and the men as men, but still having no need for gender because there is no procreation? It appears that Jesus was obviously resurrected as a “man” in a flesh and bone body. It wouldn’t seem logical for women to be raised as men too.. Just something I have pondered over for several years. Oh, and that’s raises another question; People always refer to it as a “spiritual body”. However Jesus said; touch me Peter does a spirit have flesh and bone? Sometimes I think of it possibly being a body in a 4 dimensional realm rather than the 3 dimensional realm we now reside in. Which would be like explaining a 3rd dimension to someone who lived in flatland. Impossible to comprehend.. Also Rev 21-4 teaches us that we will have no unpleasurable neurons. Another mystery is that we will still have freewill but will not be able to chose evil. Part of the answer is there will be no more temptation. Which is I guess the same condition that the good angels reside in now, because apparently they can never go bad. Just some things I have pondered over for several years. Possibly through too much inquisitiveness,LOL…………..bill

  7. Note: It is not logical and consistently coherent to defend Future Certainty Knowledge without invoking the god of Calvinism. This is the error of Evangelical Wesliansism, or as they often say pertaining to our freewill (He knows but we don’t’) which I perceive to be incoherent logic……bill

  8. Hi Bill, I always look forward to yours and Bob’s studies and Bonnie’s readings too..they are always very edifying. I have a question for you about time. Rev 10:5-7 “And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth forever and ever, who created heaven and the things that therein are, and the earth and the things that therein are, and the sea and the things which are therein, “That there should be time no longer:” But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.” Bill, how would you explain “that there should be time no longer” if time wasn’t created? In these verses, It sounds like time was created for a purpose and that once the mystery of God is finished, (God in us…the temple is complete)…when the Lord returns for his own and judgment day takes place…when we enter eternal life…in a new heavens and a new earth, that there will no longer be a need for time as we once knew it. I agree with you that we are given free will and that God works within time on this earth to bring about his purpose. Judy

    • Rev 10:5-7 “And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth forever and ever, who created heaven and the things that therein are, and the earth and the things that therein are, and the sea and the things which are therein, “That there should be time no longer:” But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

      Greetings Judy
      Always good to hear from you…You pose a very good question. First off, not that you suggested this in any way, but I will state that I do not expect everyone to be in agreeance with me on this subject, and I would never regard anyone who sees it different as not being a Christian. I think that probably goes without saying as I know you have very good insights in scripture and have seen a couple of things differently than I concerning these types of difficult concepts. Praise God for that. I don’t know it all by a long shot.

      Anyway I think this means “time within this creation realm” as we know it will end. I do not perceive it to be saying there wont’ be any more time after wards in the new heavens and new earth. I used to think that way but have changed my opinion on that.

      One of the reasons I believe this is because, I think we will be endowed with a much fuller understanding and knowledge than we have now at the resurrection, however I also believe we will go forward in the new earth for and eternity learning of God and His vast/endless love and knowledge. And I also perceive that learning is a linier process of sequential nature. Another reason I believe Rev.10:5-7 to be an expression concerning the present creation whereas time as we know it will be no more is because there are a couple of places in the OT that reference “time” on earth by using the expression “for ever”. And we know that this creation will not last forever. It was used as a form of description in comparison to mans life. (I think in the book of Ecclesiastics if I remember correctly). And I think other places in the OT as well. I will try and look those up again. Here is the reference in Ecclesiastics.

      Ecclesiastes 1:4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: (but the earth abideth for ever).
      Thank you so much for bringing your understandings to the website Judy, They are always welcome.

      peace, Bill


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